zzz. I don't think some of you understand what Cizzy is trying to say, and even with an explanation, perhaps you still won't (because *gasp* it's not verifiable). He's saying that certain players in the past represent an apex of skill to the extent that there can only be a plateau effect that follows. This is something I agree with. I'm going to be blunt: most of you are mixing up "generations". Neluro is not a new player. By any means. Neluro is also extremely skilled. Nobody is denying that. Furthermore, you cannot conflate the idea of being a new player with being someone who still plays the game. But you have to understand that players like Neluro, who are understandably rare now (insofar as having very good SMG/semi aim), were once not so rare (let me be clear in saying that I have always respected Neluro as a player with great aim, but never as the apex of skill, which seems to be what some of you are trying to effect). We all cite different individuals as having great aim; some of the older players will remember that Bromor was famously skilled with the semi-rifle, others will cite Raya or Seyro in the same way, while some will say Fake or BlackCrytek, and so forth. With SMGs, it might be Chardonn, or Ryulein (before he first quit), or others. Now, I don't think anyone is going to even attempt to deny that skill in the sense of being able to wield a SMG, semi-rifle, rev (Etc.) has decreased. The question is whether or not that constitutes skill. I believe it does, in a much more profound sense than the meta-game currently allows. Some of you, obviously, will disagree. But it's whatever. For the players who were around to see Espybuns cruise through entire teams like it was nothing, for those who saw - either on person or in YouTube - one of Snowydayz's extraordinary performances, it's simply impossible to imagine a level of player beyond that. That is the one weakness of being old. The other weakness of being old, of course, is the fact that we're put into the category of old, and that grants the illusion of actually knowing the game at the "highest level", which most of us do not. Some of us are old, and some of us are new. And almost none of us can fully comprehend the highest level of skill at each point in the game, because even if you're the oldest player on the entire fucking forum, you likely sucked at first. Perhaps one or two of us are old enough to have played (SERIOUSLY) against SH and that annoying Korean team (Lillith? I forget that guys fucking name) that dominated EU at first, and one or two of us are old enough to remember SwS when they were at the top (I'm going to discredit TzK since they were around forever). So even these terms are useless, in a sense, and it's equally useless to say that you're familiar with the old players, or that you were familiar with the new players. It's impossible to argue on a relativist basis when we're utilizing such vague terminology, terms so vague that they, ipso facto, cannot be put into an actual, functioning relationship (without explanation).
Now, having gone out all of the pontificating out of the way, I am of the opinion that the older players are more individually skilled, simply because of the environment they were "raised" in. In the same way that older generations - of almost anything - tend to be of a higher standard (NORMATIVELY, I might add, as such a standard is attainable and perhaps able to be surpassed nonetheless). This should make sense to everyone. Just as I believe that older players of Maple Story, the Stephens and Tigers of the world, who grinded for hours upon hours just to reach level 60, to be of a higher level. It's simply something I happen to believe. Do with it what you will.
But this is only to be used in reference to some players, and I think this is where all the arguments are falling short. Most old players suck. So really, you're looking at about 20-30 key names that can be thrown around for a good couple of years. On average, I would definitely say the newer players are better, partly because there's simply so much more literature on the game. Newer players used to just EGS themselves to death. That's probably not a trend anymore. So, then, in terms of apex of skill, older players, but in terms of general skill - definitely the newer players.
Furthermore, in terms of clan warfare, definitely the newer players. The old clan strategies were always simple as hell. Semi-rifle at the start, run into the train - it was different insofar as most clans - if not all - relied much more on individual skill than on collective teamwork. Thus, even clans that had a minor amount of teamwork - "c00l old ppl" will remember TzK (and their million reincarnations) and, more importantly, FY - could dominate over what were perhaps more "skilled" teams. This trend had long been changing, even when I was playing S4, and even though ESL participation had (has? idk if it's better yet) dying down slowly, in the later stages of ESL there was certainly more teamwork than before (although this was still a while ago, idk how dead it is now). Clans like Diva were at the top of their game during this movement (yes, the new Diva that most of you dicksuck; the old Diva was the exact opposite, since it usually just had Lucy/Warbringer/Snowy/Valif/etc. floundering about). It'd be interesting to see what Okan has to say, since Okan was playing with Kostorod or whatever in that clan before his "rize 2 promineence" with Diva and his hacker boyfriend (hurr jk). I have no idea how the newer clans are playing, to be honest, and this is all speculation, just as everything else was. I just genuinely believe that there can be no aesthetic regression of any sort in terms of clan warfare, simply because the older clans were not in any way, shape, or form exceptional in terms of meta-play (I would also cite this "fact" in support of my assertion that the proportion of "skilled" players to "decent/bad" players has increased; it was simply easy to steamroll most players; this is still the case, in all likelihood, but not like it was back then, in my opinion) But you can't expect unbeatable logic, and those of you who are capitulating simply because there is no easy answer shouldn't be so weak. Most things in life are that way. Even if there isn't an end to the path - often the struggle itself can lead to enlightenment. Don't rely on vague accusations of dicksucking or masturbation - if something is wrong, rely on argument, not vitriol.
So, tl;dr: Older players are more individually skilled on an individual case-by-case basis, but I don't see why newer players couldn't win, assuming my projections to be axiomatic and in accordance with the general trend of the game. If the clan warfare has not progressed in the fashion that I imagined, then I would tend towards older players.
This post has been edited by YoYoMa: 13 February 2012 - 05:26 PM
.Crunk, on 01 February 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:
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